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. And if of another,
what will be the science that investigates the attributes of
substance? This is a very difficult question.
(4) Further, must we say that sensible substances alone exist,
or that there are others besides these? And are substances of one kind
or are there in fact several kinds of substances, as those say who
assert the existence both of the Forms and of the intermediates,
with which they say the mathematical sciences deal?-The sense in which
we say the Forms are both causes and self-dependent substances has
been explained in our first remarks about them; while the theory
presents difficulties in many ways, the most paradoxical thing of
all is the statement that there are certain things besides those in
the material universe, and that these are the same as sensible
things except that they are eternal while the latter are perishable.
For they say there is a man-himself and a horse-itself and
health-itself, with no further qualification,-a procedure like that of
the people who said there are gods, but in human form. For they were
positing nothing but eternal men, nor are the Platonists making the
Forms anything other than eternal sensible things.
Further, if we are to posit besides the Forms and the sensibles
the intermediates between them, we shall have many difficulties. For
clearly on the same principle there will be lines besides the
lines-themselves and the sensible lines, and so with each of the other
classes of things; so that since astronomy is one of these
mathematical sciences there will also be a heaven besides the sensible
heaven, and a sun and a moon (and so with the other heavenly bodies)
besides the sensible
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